Victoria Santa Cruz rehearses the performance of her poem "Me gritaron Negra"

"What was the situation and experience that gave you the strength for you to not become what others called you?"

Eugenio Barba asks Victoria Santa Cruz about her identity construction beyond being called "negra" and finding a new meaning in a word used to discriminate against her

"It was a very complex experience. After all, I wasn't even seven years old yet when I was called "Negra." That was when I first grasped what the word meant. I didn't tell a soul. Yet something told me this was mine to bear, that I had to understand it myself and find my own way out. There was a time in my life when I hated, truly hated, and I know what hate is. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, because it only destroys you from within. But in my journey, I did hate. As time went on, however, I began to understand; I realized that experience was important, too. Without it, I wouldn't be who I am today. It made me realize that the negative plays a role as well. It’s not about dwelling on it, but about what we do with it. I reflected on the impact it had on me and how things gradually came into balance. Today, I can say: "Thank God, someone called me 'negra,' so I could come to understand that I am Black. but not in the way they said it. I am “Negra”, and I am part of that mosaic of humanity, Black, white, yellow, and red. Until the red, white, yellow, and black realize they are one, they will never discover what it truly means to be human."

Victoria answers Eugenio's question, reflecting on how she built her identity by understanding a different meaning of Blackness

The Danza de las Tijeras (Scissors Dance) is a traditional Indigenous dance performance from the Andean regions of Peru. It involves acrobatic movements while rhythmically moving two metal blades together that look like scissors.

"You belong to a minority; here in Peru, there are only 800,000 Black people within an Indigenous population of 14 million..."

Eugenio Barba asks

"Indigenous and mestizos (mixed)"

Victoria Santa Cruz manifest

"But how did it come about that you are now directing the National Folklore Ensemble, that is the organization dedicated to preserving and safeguarding the cultural richness of Peru's various ethnic groups, cultural practices that could be lost?"

Eugenio Barba asks to Victoria

"In 1957, with one of my brothers (Nicomedes), I began taking the first steps to create Black theater in Peru so that Black youth could express themselves through theater. Because nothing can be communicated if one is not communicating with oneself first; nothing can be communicated to another. So that led me to know I direct the National Folkloric Ensemble, through these expressions inherited from Africa. I came to understand Indigenous traditions, just as I understand the traditions of white people. That is why I say: if white people do not open their eyes and unite with Black, Indigenous, and other peoples of color, they will disappear. And their disappearance will mean ours as well, for we are part of them and they are part of us. If that were not the case, I would not have been attacked; I was attacked because they are a part of me. Otherwise, it would not have been possible."

Victoria reflects on her beginning with Nicomedes in the theatre, to later talk about her cosmology understanding humanity as part of a mosaic.

Dance of Tijeras

"Something is on the verge of being lost if we do not look closely, not viewing it as something picturesque or exotic, but as the pure life hidden beneath that label known as 'folklore." Folklore represents the vestiges of a deeply wise culture that discovered the seed of harmony, enabling man to develop harmoniously."

Victoria's ideas about how to pay attention to folklore from a horizontal non-colonial point of view.

Dance of tijeras

""Culture" comes from "cultivation," and if man does not cultivate himself through his expressions, he is doing nothing but living in a dream. So, we are part of this team to show, not only to us Peruvians but to Latin America first, and then to Europe and the entire world. If we do not pay attention to something fundamental, we will end up like ants or bees, truly forgetting that the essential lies within us, with everything that culture entails. It is a tremendously powerful force within us, whether we like it or not. All cultures differ in form, yet at their core, they seek the same thing; by homing in in a specific direction, we become disconnected from other parts and delude ourselves into thinking we are different. It was precisely in my African ancestral heritage that I found the foundation to stand tall. I had to start with the Black experience, with the realization that prompted me to say one day: these African rhythmic combinations we inherited and have so jealously guarded for 400 years... they made me declare that the Black man was never a slave, the Black man was never enslaved, because no one could enslave his inner rhythm, which is the human being's only true guide. Yet the most incredible thing is seeing how this rhythm and spirituality take on a body, manifesting as a physical presence."

Victoria Santa Cruz presents culture as a living and embodied knowledge and practice that allows people to cultivate themselves and remain connected to their humanity. For Santa Cruz, rhythm and spirituality are tied concepts and forces that are embodied through performance that allows for survival and self-definition.

"Rhythmic combinations inherited from Africa, wisely nurtured and preserved, and one seeks this freedom; it lies within, and as one connects with it, one sheds all the cheap things, all the cheap aspects of the life one leads."

Victoria Santa Curz highlights the role of rhythm as both a cosmology and a spiritual force.

Dance and performance while cajon is being played

Victoria Santa Cruz starts singing the song "Pa gozar". The lyrics of the song are "To taste this life, you have to learn how to fill. Let your body just lead you."

"You said that the Black man was never a slave because he maintained his inner rhythm. For you, rhythm is like a treasure, the beauty that the man makes appear to all men, the yellow, the whites, the blacks. Then, what is rhythm?"

Eugenio Barba asks Victoria about her definition of rhythm

"Talking about rhythm is not easy, because it is not really a matter of talking, but of feeling. When people speak of rhythm, they almost always fall into the trap of discussing tempo and time signature. Tempo and time signature are present within rhythm, yet rhythm itself is not defined by them. We have a predisposition to fall into certain habits, patterns that suit our nature, due to an upbringing focused on the intellect. Then there is the vibration produced by those specific rhythmic combinations discovered by that Black man, that African. Yet, I can truly say today that rhythm does not belong to the African; rather, at a certain stage of his evolution, that man discovered these rhythmic combinations, which hold incredible keys to self-discovery. This does not mean rhythm is African, for rhythm is simply rhythm, and man is part of that rhythm. When I speak of rhythm, I am speaking of cosmic rhythm."

Victoria Santa Cruz challenges conventional understandings of rhythm as musical structure. For Victoria, rhythm is the embodied knowledge that connects humans with universal and cosmic forces that preserve Black existence. For Victoria, engaging with rhythm becomes a pathway to self-discovery, spirituality, and a deeper understanding of one's place within the world.

Cajon playing and Afro-Peruvian women dancing

"We could speak of specific rhythmic combinations, a certain quality of vibration, that must occur to make contact with a higher quality of vibration. This higher quality might be the spiritual realm; it is not so much that the material is rejected, but rather that it merges, acting as fuel. I do not believe anything in the cosmos is disposable; one simply needs to know how to transform it. Thus, this heritage present in every human being is something we must work on, live out, and eventually pass on to our children. It came to the Black experience in the form of rhythmic combinations, profoundly wise rhythmic combinations, distinct from other types. and when one begins to dance and truly feel them, there is no need to seek freedom externally, for freedom lies within."

Victoria understands heritage as an ongoing human practice of cultivation, transmission, and self-realization through the body and performance.

"Don't tell me someone isn't racist before actually being so; one has to be it first. But one mustn't get stuck there—just as one cannot remain mired in suffering or in joy. All of that is energy that must transform. But let’s move forward, and we will find the key."

Victoria mentions that it is important to recognize the violence that we carry to transform and move with rhythm to self-identifications

"Once the dominant realizes that having too much means death, they will try to find their rhythm."

Cajon playing and Afro-Peruvian women dancing

"Being a woman and being Black is a problem—and for the rational being who has not yet grasped this, it will remain a problem. But when we begin to sense the possibilities that arise amidst such complications, this problem transforms into a condition, a social condition for self-love. One human being cannot take away another’s freedom. The one thing a person cannot do is strip away freedom because it resides within. And once one connects with that inner freedom, no one can take it away, no one. The only way to lose that freedom is through one’s own negativity, hatred, or lack of understanding. Indeed, as things stand today (I tell you this, Eugenio), no one can harm me. I am the only one who can. The day I believe that what I have found belongs to me, I lose everything. Because it does not belong to me; it belongs to that realm you call spiritual, to the Absolute."

Victoria locates freedom in a spiritual realm beyond the individual self, suggesting that empowerment comes through recognizing one's connection to something larger than oneself. She also highlights the intersection of her oppression, but for her, freedom is about connecting with something broader

Victoria performs her poem "Me gritaron negra"